More original text by Nick Nicholas, set in Lojbanic coffee bar.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1992 11:41:27 GMT
From: CJ FINE
Subject: A text by Ralph Roughton
X-To: Lojban list
To: John Cowan
Status: RO
X-Status:
Here is a translation I did last week. I copied the original down from a
copy somebody had stuck up on a wall in a room I was in, so I have no
idea of its provenance.
There follows:
1. Lojban
2. Annotated Translation
3. English Original
di'e te fanva le pemci befila ralf rautn beime'elu
do jundi je'upei mi
li'u
.itu'e
ni'o
mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do co'a cusku ledo selti'i
.inaja do na'e gasnu .uu lemi selcpe
.i mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do co'a cusku lo krinu belenu lemi selci'o cu xlali mi
.inaja do to'e kurji loba'emi selci'o
.i mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do jivyci'o leza'i do bilga co rinka lemu'e lemi nabmi co'i raktu
.inaja do fliselfu .uepeinai mi
.i ko tinju'i .e'ori'e
.i piroleimi selcpe cu nu ko tinju'i gi'enai tavla gi'enai gasnu gi'e tirna
.e'ocai
.i lei selti'i cu nalkargu .isu'anai li piremu jdima lonu danfu falepe'a
seldunku rirme'i po'a pelo ta'urkarni
.i mi ka'e kurji .iari'e mi .i mi na'e ckaji loka nalkakne
.i ja'a go'i la'a loka no'e pacna .i'a .a loka no'e ranji .i'a
.iku'i no lo romei ka nalkakne
.i lenu do gasnu da'i sesi'umi dapoi mi kakne je nitcu lenu ba'emi gasnu ke'a
cu zenba leni mi terpa je nalbanzu
.i ku'i ca'olemu'e do selbanzu lenu fatci faleza'i mi cinmo lemi se cinmo kei
.u lonu ri to'e logji keikei .ua mi co'i troci lenu do tugni kei gi'e co'a
troci lenu mi jimpe lei rinka belo nalrlogji selci'o
.i fila'edi'u ge frili falenu zo'e co'u nabmi gi na nitcu fami lo selstidi
.i lei nalrlogji selci'o cu binxo le se jimpe lemu'e se jimpe falo rinka bevo'a
.i pe'udoido ko tinju'i gi'e tirne mi .i do djica ba'a lenu tavla
.inaja ko denpa ca'o so'u mentu .ije .ai mi tinju'i do
di'e te fanva le pemci befila ralf rautn beime'elu
do jundi je'upei mi
li'u
.itu'e
The following is-a-translation-of the poem by-the-named Ralph Roughton
and-named "you attend true-how? me"
ni'o
mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do co'a cusku ledo selti'i
.inaja do na'e gasnu .uu lemi selcpe
{I request (suppose) the-event you-(make-it-so) hear-attend me
and you begin express the-you suggestion}
then you other-than do (sorrow) the-me request
.i mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do co'a cusku lo krinu belenu lemi selci'o cu xlali mi
.inaja do to'e kurji loba'emi selci'o
{I request (suppose) the-event you-(make-it-so) hear-attend me
and you begin express the reason for-the-event the-me feeling is-bad-for me}
then you reverse-of care-for the (emphasis)-MY feeling
.i mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
.ijebo do jivyci'o leza'i do bilga co rinka lemu'e lemi nabmi co'i raktu
.inaja do fliselfu .uepeinai mi
{I request (suppose) the event you-(make-it-so) hear-attend me
and you opine-feel the-state you are-obliged which-is cause the-achievment
the-me problem cease trouble}
then you fail-serve (surprise-?-not) me
.i ko tinju'i .e'ori'e
.i piroleimi selcpe cu nu ko tinju'i gi'enai tavla gi'enai gasnu gi'e tirna
.e'ocai
you-(make-it-so) hear-attend (request-emotional-release)
point-all-the-me request is an-event you hear-attend and-not talk
and-not do and hear (intense request)
.i lei selti'i cu nalkargu .isu'anai li piremu jdima lonu danfu
falepe'a seldunku rirme'i po'a pelo ta'urkarni
the-mass suggestions are non-costly in-particular .25 is-the-price-of
the-event answer by-the-figurative {anguish parent-sister}
associated-with-the city-journal
.i mi ka'e kurji .iari'e mi .i mi na'e ckaji loka nalkakne
.i ja'a go'i la'a loka no'e pacna .i'a .a loka no'e ranji .i'a
.iku'i no lo romei ka nalkakne
I innately-can take-care-of (believe-emotional-release) me.
I non-characterised by the-quality non-able. (on-the-contrary) that
[i.e. I am characterised] probably the-quality neutral hope (I accept)
or the-quality neutral continue (I accept). In-contrast zero-of the
all-some quality-of non-able.
.i lenu do gasnu da'i sesi'umi dapoi mi kakne je nitcu lenu ba'emi
gasnu ke'a cu zenba leni mi terpa je nalbanzu
{the-event you do (suppose) to-help-me something-which I can and
need the-event (emphasis) I do it} increases the-quantity I fear
and non-suffice
.i ku'i ca'olemu'e do selbanzu lenu fatci faleza'i mi cinmo lemi
se cinmo kei .u lonu ri to'e logji keikei .ua mi co'i troci lenu
do tugni kei gi'e co'a troci lenu mi jimpe lei rinka belo nalrlogji selci'o
.i fila'edi'u ge frili falenu zo'e co'u nabmi gi na nitcu fami lo selstidi
in-contrast in-completion-of-the-achievement you are-sufficed-by
the-event is-a-fact {[the-state I feel the-me feeling] whether-or-not
it [the-me-feeling] is reverse-logical} (discovery) I {cease try
the-event you agree} and begin try the event I understand the causes
for-the non-logical feeling in-condition-the-referent-of-the-last-sentence
both is-easy the-event something completingly is-a-problem and not
need I the-suggestion
.i lei nalrlogji selci'o cu binxo le se jimpe lemu'e se jimpe falo
rinka bevo'a
the non-logical feelings become the understood-thing
in-condition-the-achievement is understood the cause for x1
.i pe'udoido ko tinju'i gi'e tirne mi .i do djica ba'a lenu tavla
.inaja ko denpa ca'o so'u mentu .ije .ai mi tinju'i do
please O you you-(make-it-so) hear-attend and hear me. You desire
(I-expect) the-event talk. If-so-then you-(make-it-so) wait through
a-few minutes. And (intention) I hear-attend you.
Are You Really Listening to Me?
Ralph Roughton
When I ask you to listen to me
and you start giving advice,
you have not done what I asked.
When I ask you to listen to me
and you begin to tell me why I shouldn't fell that way,
you are treading on my feelings.
When I ask you to listen to me
and you feel you have to do something to solve my problems,
you have failed me, strange as that may seem.
LISTEN! All I asked was that you listen, not talk or do - just HEAR ME.
Advice is cheap: 25p will get you an Agony Aunt in the local paper.
And I can DO for myself: I'm not helpless.
Maybe discouraged and faltering, but not helpless.
When you do something for me that I can and need to do for myself,
you contribute to my fear and inadequacy.
But, when you accept as a simple fact that I do feel what I feel,
no matter how irrational, then I quit trying to convince you and
can get about the business of understanding what's behind the
irrational feeling.
And when that's clear, the answers are obvious and I don't need advice.
Irrational feelings make sense when we understand what's behind them.
So please listen and just hear me. And if you want to talk,
wait a minute for your turn, and I'll listen to you.
Kolin
[email protected]
From [email protected] Ukn Feb 1 08:39:09 1992
Return-Path:
Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.21.1 #21.19)
id ; Sat, 1 Feb 92 08:39 EST
Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91)
id AA13713; Sat, 1 Feb 92 08:37:02 EST
Received: from rutgers.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP
(5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA10088; Sat, 1 Feb 92 08:29:25 -0500
Received: from cbmvax.UUCP by rutgers.edu (5.59/SMI4.0/RU1.4/3.08) with UUCP
id AA26736; Sat, 1 Feb 92 07:40:49 EST
Received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (5.57/UUCP-Project/Commodore 2/8/91)
id AA07429; Sat, 1 Feb 92 06:12:06 EST
Received: from cunixf.cc.columbia.edu by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP
(5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA20716; Sat, 1 Feb 92 02:09:04 -0500
Received: from cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu by cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (5.59/FCB)
id AA18957; Sat, 1 Feb 92 02:09:04 EST
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Received: from CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU by CUVMB.COLUMBIA.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.1) with BSMTP id 5057; Sat, 01 Feb 92 02:06:57 EST
Received: by CUVMB (Mailer R2.07) id 1723; Sat, 01 Feb 92 02:06:42 EST
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1992 18:05:15 +1100
Reply-To: cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu!nsn
Sender: Lojban list
From: cbmvax!uunet!cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu!nsn
Subject: Ralph poem, tr. la kolen.
X-To: [email protected]
X-Cc: [email protected]
To: John Cowan
Status: RO
X-Status:
Aside to Mark: OK, so it's not eLALAmein. (ela'ala'amein?) As we say in
Greek, something's up in the gypsy district (there's a problem). My apologies
for stuffing up for the umpteenth time in something that might not be
enforcable.
My comment's on Colin's latest.
By the way, I thought very little of the original poem (it did not, indeed,
seem to have enough coherence or spontaneity to be a poem); and I find it
irritating when translations are better than the original (after all, Lojban
is still too young to sound trivial).
>do jundi je'upei mi
As distinct from Mark, I approve of the {je'upei}
>mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
Mark knows well my position on {kau} within {du'u}, but in this case, I must
agree with him: {do} should replace {ko}
>.inaja do na'e gasnu .uu lemi selcpe
I loath and despise connectives like {.inaja}. Just as the lojban {.e} has
nothing to do with NL "and" (as you have pointed out), so too {.inaja} has
little to do with NL "if". Besides, such connectives always make me pause
and draw up truth tables, which is silly. I'd use {.iseni'ibo}
>.i mi cpedu da'i lenu ko tinju'i mi
>.ijebo do jivyci'o leza'i do bilga co rinka lemu'e lemi nabmi co'i raktu
>.inaja do fliselfu .uepeinai mi
{co'u}. Damn, if this is how spelling will trip us up, will we always have
to speak the language in parallel translation? The fact is that cmavo are
packed too dense - and that nothing can be done to relieve that. Unless,
namely, some of the rarer ones start getting pushed out into CV'V'V space.
This doesn't help here though; I doubt the triple {co'a/co'i'co'u} will be
zapped. Though the {co'u/mo'u} distinction seems unnecessary (to say nothing
of the new upstarts, de'a and di'a. I don't care how much authority pc has,
this is degenerating into lunacy.
Back to text.
I don't think {fliselfu} the most communicative way of putting it. {slefli}
would help (you serve-fail: you fail [main claim] in that you serve [2ndary
claim])
>.i ko tinju'i .e'ori'e
>.i piroleimi selcpe cu nu ko tinju'i gi'enai tavla gi'enai gasnu gi'e tirna
> .e'ocai
I'd say just {rolemi}. And despite Mark's favouring of the use of {nu} here,
I still think this is English-tainted and antipredicationist. Even if it is
John's ingenious solution to the "only" problem. Even if the alternatives
(like .enai lo drata) are not much better.
>.i mi ka'e kurji .iari'e mi .i mi na'e ckaji loka nalkakne
>.i ja'a go'i la'a loka no'e pacna .i'a .a loka no'e ranji .i'a
>.iku'i no lo romei ka nalkakne
{ja'a} contradicts {na}, but does it contradict {na'e}? {je'a} is safer.
I don't know where Mark finds the style complex; the embedding is trivial
(unlike below). The third jufra is a nasty asyndeton. I may be guilty of
them myself, but I am a hypocrite :) Why not continue the 2nd jufra with
{.enaiku'i lo romei ka nalkakne}?
>.i lenu do gasnu da'i sesi'umi dapoi mi kakne je nitcu lenu ba'emi
>gasnu ke'a cu zenba leni mi terpa je nalbanzu
I'd qualify the nalbanzu with {cinmo}. I'm not sure everyone would.
>.i ku'i ca'olemu'e do selbanzu lenu fatci faleza'i mi cinmo lemi
>se cinmo kei .u lonu ri to'e logji keikei .ua mi co'i troci lenu
>do tugni kei gi'e co'a troci lenu mi jimpe lei rinka belo nalrlogji selci'o
>.i fila'edi'u ge frili falenu zo'e co'u nabmi gi na nitcu fami lo selstidi
Hm. Mark is right in saying this is complex. Yet lately I've been guilty
of worse. {broda levo'a se broda} is in lojban an unhelpful truism. The
nalrlogji is either a typo or a le'avla. {.u} does not quite correspond to
the NL either; I thus recast the phrase as:
.iku'i mi ca'o le.au mu'e do selbanzu lenu fatci fa leza'i mi cinmo dapemi
va'onai lenu da to'e logji cu.ua co'u troci lenu mi'o tugni kei gi'e co'a
troci lenu mi jimpe lei rinka be le nalylogji selci'o .i fau lenu go'i cu
ge frili falenu zo'e co'u nabmi ginai nitcu fa mi lo selti'i
which is still not maximally simple.
>the non-logical feelings become the understood-thing
>in-condition-the-achievement is understood the cause for x1
x1 of the current, embedded phrase; x1 of the main phrased referred from an
embedded is that favourite of Jimc's, {leno'a}
>.i pe'udoido ko tinju'i gi'e tirne mi .i do djica ba'a lenu tavla
>.inaja ko denpa ca'o so'u mentu .ije .ai mi tinju'i do
{.ije}? Rather {.ibabo}. {pe'udoido}? No, that's clumsy. {pe'udo} or {pe'udo'u}
I'm sorry if you thought the original good poetry (the translation is certainly
[thankfully & inevitably] devoid of the facileness of the original, but it's
just prose - no'e pemci, as opposed to to'e pemci). It's not McGonnagall (sp?),
but it sure left me cold.
As for Colin's style, (not that I consider myself a stylist anymore, after
wallops of the Wallops), it's competent, and the VSO's were (again) not
offensive. But like I like to say: the sparks flew only with one Lojban work
I've read: Derzhanski's translation of the Tale of the Staircase. Ivan,
feel like doing another? (Gee, does flattery work or what? :)
And hey, if either of you have something to say about the Greek stuff I keep
doing, don't hesitate. The urbanity of Germanos has little to do with the
slanginess and "syntax unbound" of Tsiforos. I wonder which you find more
amusing. (I'll just have to do Tsiforo's version of the death of Barbarossa
eventually. And I'm taking requests for translations of his versions of
any myths you prefer).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nick Nicholas, Melbourne Uni, Australia. nsn@{munagin.ee|mullauna.cs}.mu.oz.au
"Despite millions of dollars of research, death continues to be this nation's
number one killer" - Henry Gibson, Kentucky Fried Movie
_______________________________________________________________________________